Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/pc/text/spacedig/v13_2/v13_243.txt

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #243

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 243

Today's Topics:
                Re: Outgassing
        Re: Value per pound vs. cost per pound
                  Re: Thrust
            Re: Naval Observatory
              Re: Space Profits
    SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN - PACKET RADIO DISTRIBUTION
Re: German conference highlights doubts about ESA's manned space plans

Administrivia:

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 91 16:09:54 GMT
From: microsoft![e-mail]  (David LEVINE)
Subject: Re: Outgassing

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Harold Peter White) writes:

>A friend of mine has asked me to ask around for references about the
>following:

>1. The effects of outgassing of matterials in interplanetary space.

Every component in Galileo was check for (among many other properties)
outgassing.  Plastic items like cable ties and connector parts are
manufactured out of special materials that minimize outgassing and many
of them are then "cooked" to prevent any residual outgassing.

That's one reason why the $2.50 DB-25 connector you use on your computer
costs JPL $75 (other reasons are gold plating, plastic forms that don't
melt under your soldering iron and much higher tolerances).

That "new car smell" apparently is considered to be contamination to
a spacecraft.  I don't know the specific effects but I imagine that
optics are most critical followed by electronics.

David Levine (davidle@microsoft)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 91 18:42:54 GMT
From: isis!isis![e-mail]  (Glenn A. Serre)
Subject: Re: Value per pound vs. cost per pound

Comments (to comments?):
Henry says:
>Relatively insignificant.  Rockets get out of the atmosphere as quickly
>as they can for several reasons.

Nick:
So that's why rocket engineers hold their breaths at the point of
maximum aerodynamic stress?

Me:
It's actually the Launch Ops guys that hold their breaths, the engineers who
designed and built the rocket are probably not there :-).
Seriously, (in ELVs at least) the payloads are the ones worried about max-q
or max buffet.  The rocket itself (? You know what I mean) doesn't really need
to worry too much.

Henry says:
>...There may be a slight constraint to avoid major releases
>into sensitive regions of the upper atmosphere, but I can't imagine this
>having much impact, given that launchers climb through those regions
>very quickly for other reasons already.

Nick:
This "coasting phase to protect the ozone" is yet another constraint that
must be imposed on a system already strained to its technical limits.

Me:
Who mentioned a "coasting phase"?  Just don't use solid fuel boosters that
produce Chlorine compounds, use rp1-lox, lh2-lox, or NO4-N2H2.

Nick:
>>* Safety and handling costs of handling large structures and large
>>  amounts of fuel in one gravity and an atmosphere filled with
>>  oxygen.
Henry says:
>Long since solved completely in other industries
Nick:
Name _one_ industry that successfully handles large, fragile,
fuel-filled, use-once-and-throw-away objects at low costs.
The military is the major field that does this, and the costs are
not low.
Me:
The ELV industry?  ELVs aren't all that fragile, they don't get handled when
their filled with fuel, and handling doesn't cost much time or money.

Henry says:
>Nobody has had any real incentive to cut cost per
>pound.
Nick:
This is sort of like saying "we _want_ to pay over a dollar a gallon at
the pumps, c'mon Exxon raise it some more!"  :-)   In Econ 101 we learn
that customers do indeed like to have their costs reduced.
Me:
Customers do say:
We want %100 reliability.
We want %100 launch availability
We want everything cleaned to clean room standards.
We want to launch on need.
We want custom interfaces.
Etc. etc.
Essentially, they _want_ to pay $5,000/lb

--Glenn Serre
[e-mail]
--

--Glenn Serre
[e-mail]
--

--Glenn Serre
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 91 21:36:19 EST
From: John Roberts <[e-mail]>
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are those of the sender
    and do not reflect NIST policy or agreement.
Subject: Re: Thrust


>From: [e-mail] (Henry Spencer)
>Subject: Re: Thrust
>Date: 7 Mar 91 21:49:41 GMT
>Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Savitzky) writes:
>>   ... Basically, solar panels charge a battery that drives a heating
>>   element in a water tank that generates steam which is released out a
>>   nozzle...
>>
>>How inefficient!  Why not use solar energy to heat the water directly?

>Because the solar panels and batteries have to be there already.  Direct
>solar heating requires designing your whole spacecraft around it, and
>incidentally only works when you're in sunlight.

There are two approaches that can be taken - batteries+solar cells or mirror
taken along with the orbital craft when it takes off, or a "heating station",
to service a number of vehicles. If you have a good number of payloads to
launch, the latter method can be helpful for either technique.

If the batteries are taken along, which can store more usable energy per
kilogram - heated water, or batteries + water?

One problem with the solar heating is that all the water must be heated
ahead of time, and at the high temperatures needed for efficient operation,
radiative cooling can become significant. It shouldn't be too hard to
construct most of the vessel like a Thermos bottle (multiple walls separated
by vacuum, all surfaces highly reflective), with a small portion of the
vessel blackened for the absorption of highly concentrated sunlight.

Another method that has been mentioned is launching water from Earth, then
using solar energy to convert it to hydrogen and oxygen for use in a
conventional engine. Because of its greater density, the water should be
much cheaper to launch than LOX/LH2. It might be possible to save even
more money by using an exotic launch method such as linear or laser launch.
(How 'bout that, Nick?)
    John Roberts
    [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 91 01:18:59 GMT
From: hub.ucsb.edu!ucsbuxa![e-mail]  (Charles Frank Radley)
Subject: Re: Naval Observatory



I have a beta version of the floppy almanc called ICE which
you can download from my BBS on 805-649-5314.
I obtained it from the Novac BBS but I do not have the number for
them at my office.
  I will post it when I get home.
My BBS max speed is 2400 baud, not sure if NOVACC has 9600 or
not.
  I will tryo to e-mail it via uucp command, although that
costs me $$$ at 2400 , it is quite a big file (4 files).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 91 02:04:32 GMT
From: borg!vangogh![e-mail]  (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Space Profits

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nick Szabo) writes:
|> LLNL price estimates are probably unrealistic.  LLNL has zero experience
|> in manned spaceflight and space mining.

    Are you saying the latter implies the former?  NASA has lots of
experience in manned space flight and their price estimates (e.g.
Fred) are undeniably unrealistic.  More likely underestimating is
endemic to gov't agencies, IMO.
--
    Jon Leech ([e-mail])    __@/
    ``Scientific progress goes "Boink"?'' - Hobbes

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 91 23:06:38 MST
From: [e-mail] (CARY OLER)
Subject: SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN - PACKET RADIO DISTRIBUTION
X-St-Vmsmail-To: st%"[e-mail]"

                /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

                        SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN

                              08 March, 1991

                          New Products Available

                /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


SPECIALIZED PACKET NETWORK DISTRIBUTION - NEW PRODUCTS

     Amateur packet radio operators interested in staying on top of current
radio conditions and solar terrestrial information should be pleased to note
the release of several new revised products formatted specifically for
packet radio network distribution.  The prime objective of developing and
providing these packet radio reports has been to provide compact,
informational packets which can be easily integrated into the packet
networks.  The release of these new reports should help prevent possible
communication congestion, distribution redundancy, and should increase the
throughput and speed of distribution throughout the various packet radio
networks being serviced.

     A mailing list has been established exclusively for those who are
redistributing the reports and information through the packet radio
networks around the world.  Please note that this mailing list is not
available to everyone.  Only those who are dedicated to distributing the
reports to the various packet networks will be granted access to this list.
Other individuals or organizations who desire the data and have a
legitimate reason will also be granted access to this list.  Send all
requests for access to this mailing list to: "[e-mail]".  Please
include a brief description of the packet net(s) being serviced as well as
the approximate area that the respective network(s) cover (ex. North
America, Australia, Japan, etc.).

     All of the major warnings and alerts which have been posted in the
past will be reposted in a packet-format for rapid distribution throughout
the packet networks.  All previous products remain unchanged and will
continue to be posted as-is.

     Please note that some minor changes to the packet report headers
may occur over the next few weeks.  Thereafter, the headers and general
report structure will remain fixed.


**  End of Bulletin  **

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 91 01:53:56 GMT
From: zephyr.ens.tek.com!tektronix!sequent!crg5![e-mail]  (Nick Szabo)
Subject: Re: German conference highlights doubts about ESA's manned space plans

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:

>Experience so far says very strongly that if you plan to do in-space repairs,
>you had better plan to have humans (or the imaginary just-as-flexible
>teleoperated robots which will be available almost right away now for sure,
>really, trust us) on hand.

Or, if you prefer not to pay the $1,000,000++/hour cost of an EVA, you
could make sure it works before you launch it.



--
Nick Szabo            [e-mail]
"What are the _facts_, and to how many decimal places?"  -- RAH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 91 11:06:09 -0900
From: "ACAD3A::FSRRC" <[e-mail]>
Sender: "ACAD3A::FSRRC" <[e-mail]>

ISECCo Update:  India Agriculture & Notice of meeting delay
March 7, 1991

     On January 16 I took leave of all the projects which so fully absorb  my
time  around here, and headed for India.  On the way there I stepped off  the
plane is San Francisco for a week to go see Biosphere II, and on the way back
I  stepped off in Seattle to meet with some ISECCo people (not to mention  do
some business for my company.)

     Late 1990 and early 1991 was an extraordinarily busy time for me due  to
the immense amount of snow we got here in Fairbanks:  I was shoveling  10,000
pounds  of  snow every day for 3 weeks, what with all the roofs I  have  that
need  shoveling!  The result of that was I didn't get to mailing  the  ISECCo
annual  meeting  notifications before I left.  (I  know,  excuses...excuses.)
Since our bylaws require advance notification by U.S. mail we must delay  our
meeting.   Originally (as per the notification sent out 1/13/91) the  meeting
was  scheduled  for 3/9/91.  We have re-scheduled the meeting for  April  14,
1991...and will be sending out a notice to that effect soon.

     Although  the main purpose of my trip to India was vacation, I did  plan
to investigate their agricultural practices because their (winter) climate is
very similar to that which we expect to find in the biosphere.  I did not get
very  far approaching research institutes because I ran into bureaucrats  and
did  not intend to spend my vacation working my way through them to meet  the
people  doing the work.  However I did a considerable amount of exploring  on
my own and have a very good idea of the kinds of crops they plant, which  was
my goal.
     A  large  number  of Indians are vegetarian.  Thus their  diet  is  very
similar  to that which we will develop for the First CELSS.  We will  have  a
limited amount of meat from fish and possibly other animals, but the bulk  of
the  diet  will be from garden crops.  Many of the crops grown in  India  are
familiar  to  us:  cauliflower, turnips, peas,  carrots,  tomatoes,  cabbage,
lettuce,  peanuts, and potatoes.  Rice is a summer crop, so I didn't see  any
growing, but it was easily available and there were plenty of winter wheat in
the  ground.   There was a variety of radish which I hadn't  seen  before:  a
white  root that looked very similar to a carrot in size & shape.   The  only
things  I saw which you probably wouldn't find on the grocer's  shelves  were
fruits--and  we  won't have room to raise them in the  First  CELSS  anyhow!!
There  were  a  few notable absentees: beans (fresh,  anyhow),  pumpkins  and
broccoli.  Squash was scarce.  I am not sure if these were due to the  season
or  what--broccoli is one which I would have expected to find any  where  you
found cauliflower though, so I have no idea why it was missing.
     Agricultural practices were almost exclusively with muscle-power, be  it
plowing  with oxen or harvesting by hand.  A large portion of the  crops  was
also  transported by ox cart, and frequently on hand push-carts!  Though  for
long distance transport they did use trucks.  But all the gardening I saw was
being done by hand.  Planting, weeding and harvesting were done very much  as
a home gardener--and we shall do in the First CELSS--do here.
     Although I did not actually see anyone using fertilizer I believe it was
widely  used.  I saw advertisements for it, and a couple of places where  you
could  buy it.  A certain amount of their fertilizer is in the form of  human
waste, for much of their (raw) sewage ran into their irrigation system, and a
common  method of relieving yourself was to find a nearby field!  Cow  manure
is  a  common form of fertilizer here, but in India it is too valuable  as  a
fuel  source--a  significant  amount of cooking was  done  using  dried  dung
patties, and it was a common sight to see these patties spread out and drying
in the sun, or stacked into large piles ready for use!
     If  Indian agriculture were a criteria for determining our crops in  the
First CELSS we would see few things which are not common here.  Because I was
not  able  to  talk  with any researches I  did  not  discover  any  specific
varieties,  but  for the most part it appears that our current  crop  designs
would  grow quite well in India.  This indicates that they will grow fine  in
the  First  CELSS, whose environment will be very similar to  that  found  in
India.

ON  OTHER  MATTERS:
     This  has been a slow winter for ISECCo due to a severe lack  of  funds.
Expenses  have out-stripped income and until our finances recover  activities
are  going to be curtailed.  The principal project which got delayed  is  the
creation  of an ecological unit in the basement.  Though we have most of  the
materials  needed  we  lack  the money to operate it.   So  we  have  delayed
building it until we can come up with the $100/month necessary to power it.

     We may have an opening for a position this summer; those of you who  are
interested  please send me your resume.  The job will be strictly  volunteer,
though  we  will  be able to provide room and board as long as  there  is  20
hours/week  or  more  donated.  The job will entail a variety  of  chores  as
diverse  as  weeding the garden and doing research.  To a certain  extent  it
will  be  possible to tailor the job to the person, so don't let  a  lack  of
specific skill keep you from applying!  Also, in conjunction with ISECCo,  my
construction  company  may  be able to offer a part-time job  to  those  with
suitable skills--the primary purpose of this is to give our volunteer workers
pocket  money...and fill a need my construction company has during  the  busy
months!

     Having obtained the data needed from the poultry, we have terminated the
experiment(s)  and  given  all our remaining chickens  and  ducks  away.   If
funding had been available we would have maintained them, but it wasn't.  For
a discussion of out poultry project wait for a copy of our 1990 newsletter!

     Speaking of our 1990 newsletter, it is going to be 4-5 months late  this
year.  This was another ISECCo project that got delayed when I became so busy
shoveling  snow!   It  is  about half written now, and we  hope  to  have  it
finished by the end of the month--which most likely means May sometime!   So,
those of you who have paid for it, please excuse the delay!

     Due  to the increase in mailing costs we are going to be increasing  our
minimum dues (currently $5 for 10 years of our annual newsletter).  This will
probably  be  a fairly significant increase, and will be  effective  starting
shortly  after  the  middle  of April (i.e.  after  we  have  our  Director's
meeting).  So those of you who haven't joined and want to get in on the cheap
membership had better act soon!

     Due to circumstances beyond his control, Terry Fike has had to  withdraw
his nomination to the position of ISECCo secretary.  Therefore we are seeking
nominations  for secretary.  The limitations are: the person must be a  local
Fairbanks  member who can donate a minimum of 5 hours/month labor to  ISECCo.
If you or anyone you know is interested in this position please advise me!

                 *                     *                   *

     This is primarily written for distribution via electronic mail networks.
It is not copy-righted and may be freely copied and distributed, in whole  or
in part.  We also include a copy to our members being notificed of our annual
meeting--for  their benefit and for them to distribute to their  friends  and
any interested party!
     Those  of  you  who wish to know more should write me  (via  BITNET)  at
FSRRC@ALASKA or via the  postal system at the address below.  Please  include
a postal mailing address for all initial correspondence--we occasionally have
letters whose computer return address fails for one reason or another.

                                              --Ray :: President, ISECCo

      :::The International Space Exploration and Colonization Company:::
               :::P.O. Box 60885::Fairbanks::Alaska::99706:::
                        Researching  and  Developing
                    space oriented  technology  for  the
                           betterment of mankind.
     *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    {end}

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #243
*******************